Over the past few months, since various things have started turning up on STG etc, I've noticed something fairly atypical about many VU bootlegs. With many widely bootlegged bands of the '60s and '70s, it's been the norm for vinyl boots to sound horrible, and for DATs of the original masters to subsequently surface and provide a massive upgrade over the old vinyl.
However, with the Velvets, it often seems to be the other way round. A case in point is the torrent entitled '1968-1970', which consisted of rips of the 'Live '68' and 'Praise Ye The Lord' LPs. The tracks are mostly from the Oct '68 La Cave shows and various dates at the Boston Tea Party, and I'd have expected them to sound inferior to the (mostly) known-gen versions that have also been torrented. In fact, despite obviously being far less complete, they sound considerably better, with vastly less tape hiss.
A more surprising example is the White Heat EP that Simon uploaded recently. These are the 1969 'lost album' tracks, and my understanding was that all the vinyl boots featuring these sounded pretty grotty compared to the recent '17 (or 22) Demos' tape that's made it into circulation. However, once again, they're considerably clearer and cleaner than the tape - vinyl crackles and truncated intros and outros notwithstanding. Is this also the case with the other vinyl boots (NYC, Everything You've Ever Heard, And So On) that Olivier's site recommends as sources for the '69 sessions?
What's frustrating is that we have a choice between vinyl where the material's often incomplete, or tape-sourced stuff that's great because it's normally complete and unedited, yet it doesn't sound as good as the vinyl bits. Meanwhile, the people who put together these vinyl boots in the '70s and '80s are out there somewhere, sitting on pristine, unedited master tapes that are better quality than anything we've ever heard! Where are they?
Vinyl boots better quality than tapes?
It is very easy to clean up tape-sourced material nowadays. Even the Freeware progs enable you to make considerable upgrades in the recordings. Another issue which can affect quality is HOW the LP is transferred to digital format. The turntable and stylus have EVERYTHING to do with the quality! If you use an expensive turntable/tonearm/cartridge, you are very likely to get a sound that is overwhelmingly superior to a tape-to-HD transfer.
Now, as far as those "master tapes" from the 70's, the recordings were almost definitely originally made with reel-to-reel tapes. It has become a widely known phenomenon that MANY brands and qualities of tapes completely degenerate after a relatively short amount of time. The magnetic part of the tape simply flakes off! So, even if the tapes were stored in a perfect, humidity-free chamber, you may very well have crap in the storage case.
Similiar with acetates, they are so delicate and prone to decay, that if you find one it should be transferred digitally ASAP, because if stored in ideal conditions, the acetate will degenerate sooner than later.
The liner notes for the Led Zeppelin DVD (as well as the new Kids Are Alright remastered DVD), go into great detail explaining the process the remaster-ers went through to rebuild the old video recordings. Tens of thousands of dollars at a bare minimum...and that was just to make the tapes playable! And more often than not, after the digital transfer, the tapes were is such horrid shape that they were no longer useful for anything other than paper-weights!
In summary, those long-lost tape recordings from the 60's and 70's are probably toast by now, and all we have left are those bits that have already been discovered and transferred to LP or digitally. PLUS, who knows how many people/companies Lou, John and co. contacted and/or sued to get those original tapes from?!
Now, as far as those "master tapes" from the 70's, the recordings were almost definitely originally made with reel-to-reel tapes. It has become a widely known phenomenon that MANY brands and qualities of tapes completely degenerate after a relatively short amount of time. The magnetic part of the tape simply flakes off! So, even if the tapes were stored in a perfect, humidity-free chamber, you may very well have crap in the storage case.
Similiar with acetates, they are so delicate and prone to decay, that if you find one it should be transferred digitally ASAP, because if stored in ideal conditions, the acetate will degenerate sooner than later.
The liner notes for the Led Zeppelin DVD (as well as the new Kids Are Alright remastered DVD), go into great detail explaining the process the remaster-ers went through to rebuild the old video recordings. Tens of thousands of dollars at a bare minimum...and that was just to make the tapes playable! And more often than not, after the digital transfer, the tapes were is such horrid shape that they were no longer useful for anything other than paper-weights!
In summary, those long-lost tape recordings from the 60's and 70's are probably toast by now, and all we have left are those bits that have already been discovered and transferred to LP or digitally. PLUS, who knows how many people/companies Lou, John and co. contacted and/or sued to get those original tapes from?!
Bargain bin gold, favorite bands, concerts, photos, and my record collection: All Good Music
[long inconclusive post, sorry]
I think/hope that better quality versions of some of these old tapes will still surface, and forums like this will help us to recognise them as such. The fact that they have been copied and traded for so long means there have been many versions of these tapes knocking around. mg196 - look on the bright side, some tapes are more resilient than you think - what about the Warhol tapes? - they sat in a box for 30 yrs without deteriorating, same with the Quine tapes. On the other hand I went to a screening of Hedy to tape the soundtrack, but it turned out the sound on the Afterhours tape-sourced CD sounded loads better than my new tape. The sound quality on the film's soundtrack is just shite to start with. If you see a 'circulating tape' thing on a trade list you don't know the source (whereas you know that something listed as Texas Oct 1969 will be a copy of the End Of Cole Ave set).
As most trading is on CD-R now, the pool of originals is smaller but there are still different masters as anyone can master a CD from a cassette and trade it. Cleveland 1 Dec 1968 is a good example - if I had the energy I would try to find more copies of this to find the best quality, as the Sister Ray on that one is pretty special. On the 1st version I got a few years ago, the song was split in two in a very frustrating way. I later got a 2nd version of that SR that was complete and better quality, or at least from a tape that had been copied under different conditions some time ago. The CD I have of that show now has the in-two-halves version back together, and the other version added at the end. I had a vague plan to post clips somewhere online, so people could compare it with their own copies to see which one is the best available. I haven't really got the energy to do this anymore though, and the Cleveland show isn't that outstanding in retrospect, apart from that SR.
I think/hope that better quality versions of some of these old tapes will still surface, and forums like this will help us to recognise them as such. The fact that they have been copied and traded for so long means there have been many versions of these tapes knocking around. mg196 - look on the bright side, some tapes are more resilient than you think - what about the Warhol tapes? - they sat in a box for 30 yrs without deteriorating, same with the Quine tapes. On the other hand I went to a screening of Hedy to tape the soundtrack, but it turned out the sound on the Afterhours tape-sourced CD sounded loads better than my new tape. The sound quality on the film's soundtrack is just shite to start with. If you see a 'circulating tape' thing on a trade list you don't know the source (whereas you know that something listed as Texas Oct 1969 will be a copy of the End Of Cole Ave set).
As most trading is on CD-R now, the pool of originals is smaller but there are still different masters as anyone can master a CD from a cassette and trade it. Cleveland 1 Dec 1968 is a good example - if I had the energy I would try to find more copies of this to find the best quality, as the Sister Ray on that one is pretty special. On the 1st version I got a few years ago, the song was split in two in a very frustrating way. I later got a 2nd version of that SR that was complete and better quality, or at least from a tape that had been copied under different conditions some time ago. The CD I have of that show now has the in-two-halves version back together, and the other version added at the end. I had a vague plan to post clips somewhere online, so people could compare it with their own copies to see which one is the best available. I haven't really got the energy to do this anymore though, and the Cleveland show isn't that outstanding in retrospect, apart from that SR.
Last edited by simonm on 25 Oct 2004 11:43, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks for the replies guys.
Good point about Warhol/Quine stuff surviving for years untouched. Similarly, if you look at Pink Floyd/Led Zep/etc collectors' trade lists, there's loads of stuff listed as "M > dat" or "1st gen > dat" - in other words, someone has, fairly recently, gone and tracked down the original taper and transferred the recording to DAT. I've heard some stuff from the same era as the VU that's come into circulation this way (mainly Floyd/Barrett material) and it sounds fine, certainly representing a great upgrade over the old bootlegs.
With Hedy, hopefully it's just a case of the print being in poor shape. Assuming it's an optical soundtrack, over the course of 38 years it'll have got scratched to hell. Should it ever surface on DVD (hope, hope), hopefully someone will track down either the negative or a better print. Speaking of which, does anyone know how the DVD releases of things like Chelsea Girls etc hold up in this respect?
The online comparison idea sounds great - might have a go at setting it up myself one of these days (not that I'm likely to get round to it anytime soon, so if anyone else wants to, feel free!).
To repeat my previous question - can anyone comment on the sound quality of the 1969 studio tracks on the NYC, Everything You've Ever Heard and And So On vinyl boots as compared with the more recently traded tapes/CDRs? Are they worth tracking down?
Good point about Warhol/Quine stuff surviving for years untouched. Similarly, if you look at Pink Floyd/Led Zep/etc collectors' trade lists, there's loads of stuff listed as "M > dat" or "1st gen > dat" - in other words, someone has, fairly recently, gone and tracked down the original taper and transferred the recording to DAT. I've heard some stuff from the same era as the VU that's come into circulation this way (mainly Floyd/Barrett material) and it sounds fine, certainly representing a great upgrade over the old bootlegs.
With Hedy, hopefully it's just a case of the print being in poor shape. Assuming it's an optical soundtrack, over the course of 38 years it'll have got scratched to hell. Should it ever surface on DVD (hope, hope), hopefully someone will track down either the negative or a better print. Speaking of which, does anyone know how the DVD releases of things like Chelsea Girls etc hold up in this respect?
The online comparison idea sounds great - might have a go at setting it up myself one of these days (not that I'm likely to get round to it anytime soon, so if anyone else wants to, feel free!).
To repeat my previous question - can anyone comment on the sound quality of the 1969 studio tracks on the NYC, Everything You've Ever Heard and And So On vinyl boots as compared with the more recently traded tapes/CDRs? Are they worth tracking down?
8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
easy for a direct question to get lost!Mark wrote: To repeat my previous question - can anyone comment on the sound quality of the 1969 studio tracks on the NYC, Everything You've Ever Heard and And So On vinyl boots as compared with the more recently traded tapes/CDRs? Are they worth tracking down?
Everything set is quite poor quality generally. And So On is pretty good overall, and is worth getting IMO, as it is often cheap on the ebay - One Of These Days sounds very good here. Also it has the best alt version of the vocal Guess I'm Fallin In Love /Fever In My Pocket which is great. Much better than the one on PSAS, recorded on same night (2nd set?) so easily passed over.
I haven't got it but I think NYC is quite poor...
I'd recommend 'Praise Ye The Lord' boot LP - the sound quality is far superior to any of the other CDs/tapes of 2nd Fret and BTP gigs circulating. Its a shame that more of these excellent sourced tapes haven't surfaced since the release of that boot. Someone must be sitting on some good sounding tapes cos that LP is a compilation.
Yep, it was the torrent of Praise Ye The Lord (and also the Live '68 LP) that prompted me to ask this question in the first place. Great stuff.
Looking at Oliver's site, it seems that Jamie Klimek, who taped all the La Cave shows, was involved in the production of these LPs - possibly the tapers of the other shows were too?
Looking at Oliver's site, it seems that Jamie Klimek, who taped all the La Cave shows, was involved in the production of these LPs - possibly the tapers of the other shows were too?
8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
Just realised - my post above should be for 1 Dec 68 (Cleveland Music Hall) not 12 Dec 68 which is BTP [I've edited it now].
Although the Praise Ye lp might be better than other commercially issued sources for the BTP tracks, the full show CD-Rs that I have are definitely better quality. AFAIK all the BTP tapes were made by this mythical character The Professor (except maybe the Gtr Amp tape*).
Universal have the master (or at least a very good copy) of Klimek's early Oct 68 tape - the WGO on from the Peel Slowly set is from it (sounding only a tad better than the Live '68 LP version).
* there is, however, a better tape of that gig which is probably a prof job - on the Wild Side of the Street boot CD there is a great Sister Ray which is the same performance as the Gtr Amp version, but recorded from a better spot. There's only this one track that I've heard though.
Although the Praise Ye lp might be better than other commercially issued sources for the BTP tracks, the full show CD-Rs that I have are definitely better quality. AFAIK all the BTP tapes were made by this mythical character The Professor (except maybe the Gtr Amp tape*).
Universal have the master (or at least a very good copy) of Klimek's early Oct 68 tape - the WGO on from the Peel Slowly set is from it (sounding only a tad better than the Live '68 LP version).
* there is, however, a better tape of that gig which is probably a prof job - on the Wild Side of the Street boot CD there is a great Sister Ray which is the same performance as the Gtr Amp version, but recorded from a better spot. There's only this one track that I've heard though.
Ah, now that's interesting. Do you know how they compare to the BTP recordings that have been torrented? Would it help if I posted some MP3s for comparison?simonm wrote:Although the Praise Ye lp might be better than other commercially issued sources for the BTP tracks, the full show CD-Rs that I have are definitely better quality.
I actually assumed that the version on the box set was ripped from the vinyl and perhaps remastered to some extent. In Olandem's news archive, there's a quote from Michael Carlucci, who worked on the Bootleg Series project, stating that they hadn't found Klimek (in 2000 at least):Universal have the master (or at least a very good copy) of Klimek's early Oct 68 tape - the WGO on from the Peel Slowly set is from it (sounding only a tad better than the Live '68 LP version).
"The only other person that needs to be tracked down is Jamie Klimek (of Mirrors fame) for his master tape of Sweet Sister Ray, Heroin as well as the Live '68 tapes of Dougie's first show at La Cave. I've been sitting on a 2nd generation all these years. If Jamie is out there Polygram is looking for you."
there is, however, a better tape of that gig which is probably a prof job - on the Wild Side of the Street boot CD there is a great Sister Ray which is the same performance as the Gtr Amp version, but recorded from a better spot. There's only this one track that I've heard though.
As somebody else once said, always a twist and a turn...
8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
It hadn't ocurred to me that WGO was from the live 68 vinyl, but Klimek isn't that elusive. Michael Weldon (editor of Psychotronic Video, ex drummer of Mirrors) is in contact with him, although Klimek doesn't have email and has made it known he is not keen to discuss the VU or his tapes with the likes of us.
I haven't heard the torrented BTP stuff, but I'll listen to my Praise Ye tape again, and compare with CDs. Could be my mind playing tricks. I was more impressed with the sound on the Tribute To Andy & Nico CD which led me on to find the full Jan 10 and Mar 13 '69 shows.
I haven't heard the torrented BTP stuff, but I'll listen to my Praise Ye tape again, and compare with CDs. Could be my mind playing tricks. I was more impressed with the sound on the Tribute To Andy & Nico CD which led me on to find the full Jan 10 and Mar 13 '69 shows.