The Velvets' Business Dealings

sars · Post by **sars** » 28 Mar 2005 01:20

I've been watching "I Shot Andy Warhol" for a class and and I was kind of thinking about how the filmmaker's didn't get permission to use Velvet Underground songs so they resorted to a sound alike jam piece. I idly thought back to the "cast the band" thread and thought, "If they have a problem with the Nico movie all they have to do is not allow them to use any Velvets songs." Then I had kind of a strange thought, and a bunch of questions:
-Lou and Moe both objected to "I Shot Andy Warhol" but Cale obviously didn't, because he wrote the score. (Sterling was RIP by the time it was made.) No Velvets tunes were used. Cale, Sterling, Moe and Doug Yule all sued Lou in the eighties for their share of royalties, and around this time Lou sued for complete songwriting credits for all Velvets materials, which I think he won although some songs aren't credited soley to him, for whatever reason. So here's what I'm wondering:
-Who's got the power to distribute/deny anyone use of the songs? Just Lou, or other band members also?
-How are royalties divided up between the band?
-DO Martha Morrison and Ari Delon have the power to make any business decisions for the estates of Sterling and Nico?
Any answers or clearing up of my mumbo jumbo would be greatly appreciated.

lurid_uk · Post by **lurid_uk** » 28 Mar 2005 21:12

good questions - i've often wondered about that aspect of things as well. Some sort of formal business agreement (The VU Corporation? - I'll need to check the details on PSAS) was arrived at in the mid/late 80s I think, where the future royalties were apportioned out. There must also have been some kind of agreement about songwriting credits at the same as well - look how Cale seems to get credit for some odd songs which were issued after the agreement (ie "Countess Of Hong Kong"). I remember thinking that it looked as if he was being given credit on some songs almost in compensation for not getting it on others. I'm pretty sure that most of the recorded VU songs were basically written by Lou and arranged by the whole band. They probably contributed with lyrics as well. but just couldn't be bothered fighting the Lou Reed legal team when it came down to arguing about it. I'm sure I've seen interviews with both Streling and Doug where they basically said that was the case. Remember that Lou sued to get 100% songwriting credits on "Loaded" (and won the case). (Even though I dont think the credits on the lp cover were ever corrected?)
Anyway, that's my 2c worth - anyone know better?

Cameo Role · Post by **Cameo Role** » 28 Mar 2005 22:24

Television's songs were all credited to Tom Verlaine despite it being a collective effort of writing the music. Richard Lloyd, when asked if he was ever upset, said no. The songs were Tom's, he had a main idea and lyrics, and the band just built onto the skeleton. He says that even though they all contributed equally, the song was Tom's. I think there is a similar application with Reed and the VU.

lurid_uk · Post by **lurid_uk** » 29 Mar 2005 00:57

I'm sure you're correct, and I do think of almost all the VU material as "Lou Reed" songs even though there was other input from everybody. Likewise, Ringo pitched in with the odd lyric/idea for a beatles song, but we dont think of them as Lennon/Mcartney/Starkey compositions.
I think it was Sterling who commented that they never expected anyone else to cover a VU song, so no-one was thinking of royalties. But he often seemed bitter about money in interviews before the big "agreement" time (ie before the mid 80s) I think Sterling and Lou had differences about financial matters throughout the 70s, but they may have been more as a result of no-one actually making any royalties (from record sales anyway). We all "know" that the VU never sold many records while they were together, but Verve/Polygram must have shifted a lot of copies of the banana lp overall. Maybe sterling assumed lou was getting all the royalties while the money Lou was actually receiving wasn't even enough to fund his drug habit....
(I think it was Allen Klein who maintained that every record company in the world was screwing it's artistes, but wasn't he the guy who also did jail time for fraud relating to the sale of "not for sale" promo lps...

sars · Post by **sars** » 29 Mar 2005 02:12

I read something where Doug said he received about $10,000 a year from Velvets revinues so they're all getting something at this point. What I'm wondering is does Sterling's estate get more than Doug for being on more albums? Dees Moe get royalties from Loaded even though she's not on it but is credited as being so? DO Cale and Doug get the same amount? Does Nico's estate receive royalties?
All I know is that (allegedly) Warhol/Paul Morrissey didn't make any money off the Velvets because they've both stated as such.

arjan · Post by **arjan** » 29 Mar 2005 09:22

What I read (interviews etc.) was that since the foundation of the Velvet Underground Partnership, everybody (that is, Lou, John, Moe, Doug, estate of Sterling -- don't know about Nico's estate) gets royalties for all albums. How they are distributed (i.e. equally or according to weighed percentages), I don't know. This all concerns mechanical rights (sales and airings of recordings), of course.

As for the other part, songwriting, I find this Lou-wrote-everything bit somewhat hard to believe. Lyrics, OK. But not music. Why has John fought for (and won) co-credit on Sunday Morning, then? And to name but one example, I cannot believe that Cale, Morrison and Tucker would relinquish co-credit to (the music of) Sister Ray, which by all accounts was written/jammed on stage by the others when Lou was in hospital?

I still believe in the validity of the BMI database (what else to believe in if even that were wrong?

), and that (still) gives co-credit to the other members, including publishing by John Cale Music.

Mark, perhaps something to ask Doug when you're talking to him anyway?

MJG196 · Post by **MJG196** » 29 Mar 2005 13:43

This is one reason I have a lot of respect for John Lydon. In his biog, "Rotten," he says that a band is a band and everyone contributes to the song. That's why all the Pistols who performed each ORIGINAL song are given credit for every song on every album. I mean, do you really think Sid had ANYTHING to do with writing "Holiday In the Sun?!" My guess is that Steve Jones actually played bass on the recording!

Looking through their catalog you see a few "Cook, Jones" writing credits, but those were after Lydon departed halfway into "Rock and Roll Swindle."

To think, that Lydon wrote some of the most important songs in Rock 'N' Roll history and he gives credit to the ENTIRE BAND! That is very rare indeed.

arjan · Post by **arjan** » 29 Mar 2005 14:38

mg196 wrote:This is one reason I have a lot of respect for John Lydon

Yeah, I'm with you. Almost all Pistols songs were written by Lydon (words)and Matlock (music), but it's the entire band that's credited. Same with The Cure. All people who played on any given song were co-credited (even though Smith writes ?90% of their output), which is commendable and smart, too, as it generates dedication and team spirit for the band. Whereas Lou cheating Sterling out of co-credit for Femme Fatale only caused bad blood. Same with John and Sunday Morning, except he fought back.