Hy Weiss?

[Homme Fatale]

Anybody know who Hy Weiss (credited along with Sterl, Moe and Doug - no Lou! - for writing "Foggy Notion") is/was...?

The fact that the song is credited to almost the whole band (a'la "Sister Ray") and just the way the song is, would lead me to believe it was created mostly by jamming to the riff... So, I kind of wonder why Lou's name is missing from the credits (especially as the lyrics would seem to be his) and if this Hy Weiss really was a person or some kind of pseudonym for Lou used here for one reason or another?

Did Sterl, Moe and Doug actually jam and write this song with some guy other than Lou, and if so - how do you ever think Lou would've agreed to playing and recording the song?! Especially if they supposedly weren't even his lyrics?

[arjan]

The BMI database credits the song to Morrison Reed Tucker Weiss Yule. I think the confusion arises from the way the PSAS credits are listed, because although the booklet says Morrison/Tucker/Yule/Weiss, the penultimate page says ALL LYRICS BY LOU REED (or something like that, it's all top-of-head), so presumably the credits in the track listing are for music only?
Anyway, if I remember correctly, Hy Weiss was a rock'n'roll songwriter from the 50s who wrote a song called A Foggy Notion, of which the band nicked the chord structure, title, and the "Sally Mae" bridge. Doug Yule says in the Perfect Sound Forever interview (http://www.furious.com/perfect/yule.html):

We always considered ['Foggy Notion'] a throwaway. It was a song you played when you were running out of tunes and you needed more time. It's like 'Sister Ray' but without the esoteric language, a combination of two or three rock n roll songs. In fact, the middle of it I think is a direct cop from an old rock n roll song. 'Sally Mae, Sally Mae...'

Lou must've written the verse lyrics, I can't imagine an old r'n'r coot writing things like "they hit her harder" etc.!

[arjan]

The BMI entries:

Foggy Notion by Weiss and by Weiss and the V.U.

What's interesting, though, is that Lou's publishing company isn't listed. Embassy is Weiss's, John Cale(!) handles the publishing for all V.U. members except Reed, and Oakfield Ave./MMM/whoever is not there!

[alfredovu]

Always when I read a dispute about the credits on "Foggy Notion" (on the Yellow board I did it a few times!!) I ask something: this song was performed live Oct 4 1968 at La Cave during Yule´s first gig with the Velvets and only after a few days (4-5) with them. As per his own words he spent most of the time learning the songs and chating with Lou. I have never believe that Yule was involved on the writting of FN. They probably did not registered the song while John was in the band but did it later when Doug joined them. That´s my guess

[arjan]

Alfredo, I think the matter is quite simple. It's a jam, which means that anyone playing on the thing when it's recorded, gets the credit, because they played/improvised their part at that time. Which is how it usually goes with band jams. It's either that or restricting the credits to the person(s) writing the words and the chords.

The V.U.'s songwriting credits, especially those of the (previously) unreleased songs, have been determined very painstakingly, e.g. Coney Island Steeplechase and Ride into the Sun were recorded way after Cale had left the band, but they're still Reed/Cale/Morrison/Tucker compositions.

[alfredovu]

Dear Arjan,
I do not know why you consider Foggy Notion as a jam, as I think it is, considering the why the VU performed live thier songs, a song with lyrics and structure. Consider "Moves Right In". This song was recorder also by Yule but credited to Cale. Same as the ones you mentioned and "Countess from Hong Kong" too.
I still believe that FN is wrongly credited to Yule.

[arjan]

I do not know why you consider Foggy Notion as a jam, as I think it is, considering the why the VU performed live thier songs, a song with lyrics and structure.

Well, Sister Ray has lyrics and structure as well, but (especially in its live incarnation) also has clearly designated open-ended sections where anyone can more or less do as they please -- more so than, say, the live renditions of What Goes On and Waiting for the Man. That is what makes SR (and FN) a jam, and that is what makes every contributing member a co-writer. Otherwise, FN would just be a Reed/Weiss song, and Sterling wouldn't, in spite of his lead guitar playing, get a co-write either.

It's the way most bands work. If someone brings a more or less complete song to the studio/stage, it's their write (in the VU's case, mostly a Reed composition). If the song is developed in the studio or during a series of gigs, it's a band co-write (unless prohibited by dictatorial behaviour by the main songwriter(s)).

--Small aside on music publishing: funnily enough, all of Yule's VU publishing is handled by John Cale Music -- including his Squeeze songs! Surely, this lends some legitimacy(?) to Squeeze being a VU record! No doubt this results from all the 80s legal restructuring.

[jimjim]

Hy Weiss does exist! There was a review in Mojo a while back of a compilation CD called something like 'Hy Weiss presents..' with material from either the 50s or early 60s. Presumably he was either a producer, bandleader or a songwriter.

Re: above...its probably Lou's lyrics that are the problem, hence the reason why he's not credited when everyone else was.

[simonm]

Wasn't he a record company man? Old Town Records?
I remember someone on the old old VU Yahoo group saying they had heard the Weiss Foggy Notion and it bore no relation to our one. I'd guess Lou took the title from one song and the Sally Mae section from another (the La Cave version also features a few phrases from Mustang Sally). On the original VU lp its a Lou composition, so he gave up his claim on the song, presumably after a legal challenge, but distributed the rest of the credit amongst the band. That's why it's Yule and not Cale credited I think - the credits were only assigned when the Peel Slowly Box came out.
But I don't think Doug's memory is really correct when he says they considered it a throwaway number either - they played it a hell of a lot!

[Juan Motaim]

From The Wayback Machine:

http://web.archive.org/web/199910102340 ... otion.html