The Velvet Forum

A Third Cale album?

Is it possible to assemble a third VU+Cale album from the songs that existed before he was kicked out?

First of all, we know that the following recording dates occurred between WLWH being recorded and Cale being kicked out:

5th Dec 1967: Guess I'm Falling In Love (instrumental)
13th Feb 1968 (A+R Studios, NY): Stephanie Says
14th Feb 1968 (A+R Studios, NY): Temptation Inside Your Heart
28th May 1968 (TTG): Here Come the Waves (instrumental), Its Gonna Rain Tomorrow (instrumental, no drums - according to this forum)
29th May 1968 (TTG): Hey Mr. Rain 1, Hey Mr. Rain 2, Beginning To See The Light
5th July 1968: Jesus, Pale Blue Eyes, Beginning To See The Light, Story Of My Life, If You Close the Door (if we believe the listing in the Lou Reed library)

So, that's four complete songs that we currently have access to; Stephanie Says, Temptation, Mr. Rain and Beginning To See the Light.

For a fifth track, I'd suggest the version of Guess I'm Falling in Love on youtube where a clever person has spliced the instrumental with the full vocal version from the Gymnasium gig of April 1967. It's astonishing, filthy and noisy. I personally love it.

For a sixth track, let's look to Ocean. We see they recorded an instrumental of it with Cale. That has not surfaced. What has surfaced, however, is the version from Disc 1 of the 1997 Loaded reissue which is by Lou (vocals, guitar), Sterling (guitar), Doug (bass, drums) and - according to both Cale and Doug - seems to be the version that Cale plays organ on. Doug says it's not his part anyway, and Cale remembers recorded it, so I think it's a good one to include.

Tracks seven and eight? Well, we see this 5th July '68 recording session that included both Pale Blue Eyes and Afterhours. I've taken versions of both from the Live 1993 CD that prominently feature Cale on violin and keyboard, respectively. I've pitch-shifted them to send Lou's voice back twenty years, and they sound vaguely authentic. Definitely worth it for Cale's gorgeous viola part on Pale Blue Eyes.

Track nine? Well, days after Doug Yule becoming Cale's replacement, the band played an astounding gig at la Cave, which survives. Of tracks not then previously released, it includes What Goes On, Pale Blue Eyes, Foggy Notion, Jesus, Move Right In, I Can't Stand It and That's the Story of My Life. It seems almost certain that these had all been rehearsed (and probably gigged) with Cale in the band.

I Can't Stand It also exists from the 1993 reunion tour, with Cale thumping away on bass. Again, pitch-shift it and it sounds great. You could include What Goes On from Milan too, but it is only an audience recording, and Cale plays bass rather than keys as he originally would have, which takes its authenticity away.

As for track 10? Well, how about Some Kinda Love? Cale said it was his favourite Velvets song - according to his appearance on BBC's Desert Island Discs. It was recorded about a month after he was sacked, but was probably something he rehearsed (at least) at the time. Again, there's a 1993 version, showcasing his chaotic keyboards.

I'd keep this at 10 tracks, but there's an argument for 11 tracks (What Goes On) or even 12 (if you want to include the live version of I'm Not a Young Man Anymore) from the Gymnasium tape. What do you think?

My own tracklist would be:

1 Guess I'm Falling in Love (scorching opener. Similar to WLWH)
2 Stephanie Says (take it down a level,
3 Beginning To See The Light
4 Hey, Mr Rain (version 2? That's my preference).
5 Pale Blue Eyes ('93 reunion. A good side closer)

6 I Can't Stand It ('93 reunion. A good side B opener)
7 Temptation Inside Your Heart (and let's continue with the high velocity garage band style)
8 Ocean (originally designed as the 'centrepiece' of Loaded, it can serve that purpose here)
9 Some Kinda Love ('93 reunion)
10 After Hours ('93 reunion. Always should remain a closer)

Thoughts welcome!

Hello you.

MrStephen wrote: ↑20 May 2019 11:09 28th May 1968 (TTG): Here Come the Waves (instrumental), Its Gonna Rain Tomorrow (instrumental, no drums - according to this forum)

Where on the forum does it say that? I can't seem to track it down.

If there is a Cale backing track of Here Come the Waves, perhaps it would be possible to strip out a Reed vocal from a later version (or even the Matrix multitrack tapes) and fly it back in. If the July 1968 versions of those other tracks really do exist, then there's the making of a real 1968 Cale album there, which is quite an exciting thought.

The only other thing I can really add is that Guess I'm Falling In Love is actually a WLWH outtake from Sept 1967 - the info on the 45th anniversary box set confirms this.

Hello you.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145693&start=30#p176567 is the link to the relevant post from March this year. I don't know the poster, but it seemed to be accepted as fact by everyone else on there.

Re: the July 1968 recordings, I've only read about one person (again, on this forum) who made it to the archive to listen to them, but they weren't yet available. I don't know if they're available yet, or even if they're backing tracks only. Could the early version of 'Beginning To See...' actually date from this session, rather than the May one?

Re: Falling in Love, the Olandem site lists it as being recorded on 5th December 1967. Is that no longer the accepted fact?

The 10 tracks from the sessions you mentioned (minus Guess I’m Falling which seems WLWH era to me) would make for a pretty good album:

The Ocean
Beginning To See The Light
Pale Blue Eyes
It’s Gonna Rain Tomorrow
The Story Of My Life
—
Jesus
Temptation Inside Your Heart
Stephanie Says
Hey Mr Rain
After Hours


But I’ve always sort of thought a third Cale album would have been another heavy rock n roll album. Which is maybe why Reed sacked him:

What Goes On
Beginning To See The Light
Ride Into The Sun
Move Right In
Walk And Talk It
—
Guess I’m Falling In Love
Foggy Notion
I Can’t Stand It
Ride Sally Ride
The Ocean

OUTTAKES:
I’m Not A Young Man Anymore
Hey Mr. Rain
It’s Just Too Much
Cool It Down.

MrStephen wrote: ↑20 May 2019 13:21 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145693&start=30#p176567 is the link to the relevant post from March this year. I don't know the poster, but it seemed to be accepted as fact by everyone else on there.

Ah - he put a space before the apostrophe so it didn't show up when I searched. Yeah, that seems plausible then.

Re: Falling in Love, the Olandem site lists it as being recorded on 5th December 1967. Is that no longer the accepted fact?

Nope, there's studio documentation of some sort in the WHWH 45th anniversary box that confirms it as September.

If they really did make it into the studio to record all those 3rd album songs, it's a shame they didn't get as far as What Goes On - sounds like that was a live centrepiece in summer '68. Given the option I'd probably put that on there in place of Temptation (which is a bit of a throwaway, let's face it). Otherwise Dick's tracklisting looks spot on.

But then when it comes to the first album with Yule, we've not got much left:

Candy Says
Some Kinda Love
I'm Set Free
The Murder Mystery

Which is either a damn good EP, or needs filling out with another six songs from the 1969 sessions. I'd go for...

I Can't Stand It
Move Right In (a theoretical properly recorded version, not that lame instrumental)
Coney Island Steeplechase
Lisa Says
We're Gonna Have A Real Good Time Together
One of These Days

Wick Pick, I like your hypothesized album. Unfortunately, we don't have a circulating recording of "It's Gonna Rain Tomorrow". Do we even know for sure if it was a unique song? Could it be "Hey! Mr. Rain" under another guise?

We also don't have Cale versions of Story Of My Life or Jesus. That's why I suggested sticking I Can't Stand It on there. If you don't think Guess I'm Falling In Love is applicable, then you could add the Milan recording of What Goes On, too.

I suppose you could also consider 'Countess From Hong Kong' on here. It is a Cale co-write, after all.

Also, 'Cool It Down' as an outtake of this era? Do we know if it's from these days? I always assumed it was from closer in time to Loaded.

"Nope, there's studio documentation of some sort in the WHWH 45th anniversary box that confirms it as September."
Thanks! I haven't seen any scans of any of the box set reissues.

MrStephen wrote: ↑21 May 2019 14:06 Wick Pick, I like your hypothesized album. Unfortunately, we don't have a circulating recording of "It's Gonna Rain Tomorrow". Do we even know for sure if it was a unique song? Could it be "Hey! Mr. Rain" under another guise?

We also don't have Cale versions of Story Of My Life or Jesus. That's why I suggested sticking I Can't Stand It on there. If you don't think Guess I'm Falling In Love is applicable, then you could add the Milan recording of What Goes On, too.

I suppose you could also consider 'Countess From Hong Kong' on here. It is a Cale co-write, after all.

Also, 'Cool It Down' as an outtake of this era? Do we know if it's from these days? I always assumed it was from closer in time to Loaded.

"Nope, there's studio documentation of some sort in the WHWH 45th anniversary box that confirms it as September."
Thanks! I haven't seen any scans of any of the box set reissues.

Thanks. I am just hypothesizing about what may have been, in terms of making a playlist featuring John Cale yours makes more sense.
Yes, I have no idea about "Rain Tomorrow" I just threw it on because it is listed there in the sessions. If I had to guess I would say that it is a unique song. I can't see Hey Mr. Rain having any other possible title, though maybe it's just a rap of them talking about how they are going to record Mr. Rain tomorrow ...
Jesus I think comes off real well and I don't think it would've sounded much different with Cale on it, it would slide nicely into a Cale era compilation. Same with Story of My Life though less so.
And I can't quote it right now but I believe there is a live version of Cool It Down where Reed mentions that the songs was written a few years back.

Please make this. Someone just needs to go back to the library and see if they have made the Cale tapes available now. Taking a stereo 3.5 jack lead to record the headphone-out onto you laptop - is my polite suggestion .