The Velvet Forum

iaredatsun wrote:

rnranimal wrote:
That's exactly what the first two sets were like (as well as Peel). Why would it be a problem all the sudden? Lou's gone and John's not on any recordings in this set?

I would guess that Lou's gone and if he had given an opinion (or dictated?) on what goes on this CD before his departure, then they are not going to go against it now.

With regards, John Cale. I would guess he is now the main active member of the VU business that has a say but not whether it's relevant to this. I'm just pointing it out as a possible factor here, because the first two 45 th's were pretty high quality in terms of selected material and lacked any possible outtakes or known demos.

With regards bonus tracks tacked on the end. I know they did it before, I don't know why they are not doing it now. As an irrelevant personal sentiment, I've never liked it. But I'm willing to bet that the extra-vs-no-extra-tracks-tacked-onto-the-ends-of-albums issue is not what's stopping them including outtakes in this case.

I meant to say that I feel the first two sets did have unfinished demos, rehearsals and crappy sounding live content. So I was wondering why that would be stopped now, if that's the case.

We're seeing it very different then. The Columbus show is poor quality and the Gym show is only ok. The first set had the acetate and bits and pieces of the Factory rehearsals with a number of other stray tracks spread around. Not to that degree, but WL/WH had the unfinished "Guess I'm Falling in Love" and obviously in-progress "Beginning to See the Light", plus a few stray tracks. Not that I am complaining, just stating that they didn't appear to be bothered by lower quality and unfinished material.

rnranimal wrote:We're seeing it very different then. The Columbus show is poor quality and the Gym show is only ok. The first set had the acetate and bits and pieces of the Factory rehearsals with a number of other stray tracks spread around. Not to that degree, but WL/WH had the unfinished "Guess I'm Falling in Love" and obviously in-progress "Beginning to See the Light", plus a few stray tracks. Not that I am complaining, just stating that they didn't appear to be bothered by lower quality and unfinished material.

Well, in each case I think they chose the key live gigs that they could. Quality aside, Live 1966 is a classic concert of that era with the two improv pieces that expanded everyone's idea of what the VU were like outside of the studio. I might agree about the Warhol rehearsals - but they did not release all those tracks just the better ones. Also, they did not re-include the old demo/rehearsal tape (on PSAS) which features many songs from VU&N. They gave us the acetate - but that had just become too iconic to miss out, is fascinating and it cleaned up well. With WL/WH they chose not to release the demo of Here She Comes Now or any of those other Ludlow loft songs. They chose Gym (which I do like) but not the version with a live Walk It and Talk It and then also not Sweet Sister Ray (which personally I find dull). "Guess I'm Falling in Love" is vocal-less but nevertheless a great Cale era track that stands up as well as the instrumental Ride does (imo). The Cale outtakes are without exception very good and the version of Beginning is a revelation. And yes, they made mistakes - like the vocal track of The Gift.

Here they've given us some of the Matrix, which at least is well recorded. And at last they have addressed everyone's main bone of contention for a long time - they have remixed the 1969 material.

I do see your point that it appears to be a bit inconsistent. If the 3rd album is anyone's prime era VU then they're going to be miffed at not having the whole of the Matrix and the outtakes. But maybe they will include more material than that stupidly leaked working tracklist? You wrote on Hoffman that the existence outtakes are known to exist ? so, can I ask - how do you know that?

iaredatsun wrote:Well, in each case I think they chose the key live gigs that they could. Quality aside, Live 1966 is a classic concert of that era with the two improv pieces that expanded everyone's idea of what the VU were like outside of the studio. I might agree about the Warhol rehearsals - but they did not release all those tracks just the better ones. Also, they did not re-include the old demo/rehearsal tape (on PSAS) which features many songs from VU&N. They gave us the acetate - but that had just become too iconic to miss out, is fascinating and it cleaned up well. With WL/WH they chose not to release the demo of Here She Comes Now or any of those other Ludlow loft songs. They chose Gym (which I do like) but not the version with a live Walk It and Talk It and then also not Sweet Sister Ray (which personally I find dull). "Guess I'm Falling in Love" is vocal-less but nevertheless a great Cale era track that stands up as well as the instrumental Ride does (imo). The Cale outtakes are without exception very good and the version of Beginning is a revelation. And yes, they made mistakes - like the vocal track of The Gift.

Here they've given us some of the Matrix, which at least is well recorded. And at last they have addressed everyone's main bone of contention for a long time - they have remixed the 1969 material.

I do see your point that it appears to be a bit inconsistent. If the 3rd album is anyone's prime era VU then they're going to be miffed at not having the whole of the Matrix and the outtakes. But maybe they will include more material than that stupidly leaked working tracklist? You wrote on Hoffman that the existence outtakes are known to exist ? so, can I ask - how do you know that?

I didn't think we knew for sure if there really exists another take of "Here She Comes Now", but if it does, that's a real shame they left it off.

I do hope the leaked tracklist isn't correct.

Bill has said that 3rd album session tapes still exist. I believed it's been mentioned on this and the hoffman forum. I'll have to see if I can turn up any of the posts. I don't believe he was specific in any way about what was on them. But something is on them. There must be something different to the released versions. Alternate takes? Underdub versions? Alternate mixes?

That tracklist on the DH Forum describes disc 3 as a Promotional Mono Mix, but that's bollocks, isn't it? There was no mono mix, promo or otherwise, done in 1968/69 was there? If it's a stereo fold (the Sundazed one?), frankly what's the point?

I still do hope that they will get it right for the 3rd album deluxe & strongly hope that for the Live 1969 deluxe they will be gearing up for the ultimate live-VU experience.

Kill Mick wrote:That tracklist on the DH Forum describes disc 3 as a Promotional Mono Mix, but that's bollocks, isn't it? There was no mono mix, promo or otherwise, done in 1968/69 was there? If it's a stereo fold (the Sundazed one?), frankly what's the point?

Yes, it's the same as the Sundazed one. At some point it started being called a promotional mix, but there was never a mono promo LP issued of this album (but Loaded had one). Maybe there was a fold down prepared and never pressed. I wish I could find what was first said about the Sundazed LP when announced, because I had gotten the impression at the time that they created this mono "mix". Then started seeing claims that it was a radio promo "mix". Currently their site makes no such claims and simply calls it a mono version. Do the liners give any info? I don't own the set (but have heard it).

I find no point whatsoever in including it on the CD set, vintage promo creation or not. There are already two different mixes for this album, no need to go using fake ones other than to bloat the deluxe set.

Kill Mick wrote:That tracklist on the DH Forum describes disc 3 as a Promotional Mono Mix, but that's bollocks, isn't it? There was no mono mix, promo or otherwise, done in 1968/69 was there? If it's a stereo fold (the Sundazed one?), frankly what's the point?

Hear hear!

Dream tracklisting:

Disc 1: Closet mix + session outtakes
Disc 2: Valentin mix and alt mixes (acetate EP, WGO/Jesus single)
Disc 3: La Cate '68 complete
Disc 4: 1969 studio tracks (including the Countess etc acetate)
Disc 5/6: Matrix complete

Hi Mark
There is no room for all Matrix in 2cds

What about a radical new mix on "Coney Island Steeplechase" or new intro to "Foggy Notion"?

Better than nothing I suppose! Have they got rid of the telephone effect on Lou's voice?

Mark wrote:Have they got rid of the telephone effect on Lou's voice?

I actually like the telephone effect!