The Velvet Forum

iaredatsun wrote:

Kill Mick wrote:Fair point about Walk & Talk, but what could we replace it with?
I've decided to replace 'Foggy Notion' with 'Ocean', as a) I love that track, and b) I've just read they did it with Cale in '68 and there's therefore a connection with the demo version he played on in '70 on Fully Loaded (which is the version I'd include). Interestingly Cale apparently referred to 'Ocean' as 'Here Come The Waves', which is also how Olivier refers to the demo version from April 70, which is the version Cale apparently played on. Coincidence?

I can see that Ocean is strong enough as a song to be a contender. But did Reed write this song when Cale was in the band? It's nice to hear Cale on organ but, personally, the earlier 69 version is stronger for me than the Loaded sessions one. I'd keep Foggy on my own shortlist list as it was a Cale era song.

Those early 1967 Ludlow Street demos. I really like them. Too far away from the late 1968 VU sound for our purposes, but there was a whole idea in there, waiting to get out that I wish they had developed. And why did they get left off the recent WLWH remaster?

They are now said to have been recorded in 1965, so I'm guessing they would say that's the reason. I still think they should've been included. I'm not convinced 1965 is the correct year and even if so, it has a demo of a WL/WH song, so that's good enough for me. And now where will they be released? Nowhere. Yes, we have the Peel Slowly copy, but it's time for a mastering upgrade and for all takes to be included. There was room for the tracks on the WL/WH 3CDs, maybe without even having to remove any of the useless stuff.

According to this thread
http://www.velvetforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=10
Cale was in the band when HCTW/Ocean was written. Not sure how definitive it is, but I assume it's accurate.

rnranimal wrote: They are now said to have been recorded in 1965, so I'm guessing they would say that's the reason. I still think they should've been included. I'm not convinced 1965 is the correct year and even if so, it has a demo of a WL/WH song, so that's good enough for me. And now where will they be released? Nowhere. Yes, we have the Peel Slowly copy, but it's time for a mastering upgrade and for all takes to be included. There was room for the tracks on the WL/WH 3CDs, maybe without even having to remove any of the useless stuff.

They sound somehow later than VU&N. But where was Mo?

Where did they get the versions on PSAS? They don't sound like they are off the same acetate as the bootleg versions. Another Cale tape that they do not have access to, anymore? Now that he has stated his opinion on archive material, I wonder whether we'll ever see any more.

Kill Mick wrote:According to this thread
http://www.velvetforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=10
Cale was in the band when HCTW/Ocean was written. Not sure how definitive it is, but I assume it's accurate.

I wish we had more set-lists from Cale's tenure.

My interest has always been about the sound as much as the songs. For me it has to have something of Cale's sensibility and ear for music. I often try making fresh playlists of my favourite Cale era material to get the most satisfying collection. At the moment I'm playing with working in the Ludlow St. demos, the post-WLWH Cale material and a few songs from 3rd but as it is, at the most, it makes half of one album and half of another. But I somehow feel a link between the Ludlow material, Here She Comes Now, Stephanie Says and the lighter approach of the 3rd.

iaredatsun wrote:

rnranimal wrote: They are now said to have been recorded in 1965, so I'm guessing they would say that's the reason. I still think they should've been included. I'm not convinced 1965 is the correct year and even if so, it has a demo of a WL/WH song, so that's good enough for me. And now where will they be released? Nowhere. Yes, we have the Peel Slowly copy, but it's time for a mastering upgrade and for all takes to be included. There was room for the tracks on the WL/WH 3CDs, maybe without even having to remove any of the useless stuff.

They sound somehow later than VU&N. But where was Mo?

Where did they get the versions on PSAS? They don't sound like they are off the same acetate as the bootleg versions. Another Cale tape that they do not have access to, anymore? Now that he has stated his opinion on archive material, I wonder whether we'll ever see any more.

It's just said that she wasn't on the recording.

I don't think acetate was the source for Peel either. It sounds like tape and has a song not on the acetate. Even if they can't get the tape back to re-transfer, surely they made and I would hope still have a raw copy of the full tape.

Here's what Oliver's site says about it. Sterling says they were recorded at Broome St in late 1966. Why can't he be correct? I understand, given what we know of the band's history, it apparently couldn't have been recorded at Ludlow in 1967 as stated in Peel, but is there something that's not mentioned below which disproves what Sterl said? If he was right, that makes these post Nico recordings and certainly should've been on the WL/WH box.

December 1965
New York City, New York

There Is No Reason (2:13)
Sheltered Life [take 1] (2:51)
Sheltered Life [take 2] (2:54)
It's Allright (The Way That You Live) (2:48)
I'm Not Too Sorry (Now That You're Gone) (2:18)
Here She Comes Now [take 1, with false start] (2:47)
Here She Comes Now [take 2] (2:27)
1, 3-6 : Peel Slowly And See 5-CD box set, 1995.
2,7: remain officially unreleased but are available on bootlegs - Ultra Rare Tacks Vol. 2 CD has both missing takes.

The actual place and date for these recordings remain unclear.

"According to Sterling Morrison, these songs were recorded in an unheated studio on Broom St. in New York City in the winter of 1966, "probably in November or December." They were recorded on a wobbly Wollensack tape machine, intented as demos to copyright the songs. Maureen Tucker had already joined the group, but did not play with them when these tapes were made." - Philip Milstein, And So On liner notes.

In Peel Slowly And See boxed set liner notes, those tracks are said to be "recorded early 1967 at John Cale's Ludlow Street loft in lower Manhattan".

Lou Reed moves into the 56 Ludlow Street apartement in Spring 1965. The band move to 450 Grand Street early Autumn 1965, and leaves the Factory for a rehearsal space on Broome Street in August 1966.

just looking at this list of these demos, I noticed something odd.

(1) There Is No Reason (2:13)
(2) Sheltered Life [take 1] (2:51)
(3) Sheltered Life [take 2] (2:54)
(4) It's Allright (The Way That You Live) (2:48)
(5) I'm Not Too Sorry (Now That You're Gone) (2:18)
(6) Here She Comes Now [take 1, with false start] (2:47)
(7) Here She Comes Now [take 2] (2:27)

My old copy of the "22 demos" cassette which dates from 1982 has tracks 2 - 7, in the same order. In the PSAS booklet (p35/37) there's a pic of the acetate which is presumably the original source for the tracks on my cassette. But where is "There Is No Reason"? Was it on a separate acetate? I'm sure I had a tape of it but where did it come from?

any ideas?

rnranimal wrote:"According to Sterling Morrison, these songs were recorded in an unheated studio on Broom St. in New York City in the winter of 1966, "probably in November or December."

I think this quote is one of the main reasons for the confusion around the dating of this session - "winter of 1966" could be interpreted as Dec '65/Jan '66 or Dec '66/Jan '67. I think the latter is much more likely. It is an intriguing session, tho. Apart from 'Here She Comes Now' these songs disappeared without trace, and is there any record of any of them ever being played live?

lurid wrote:just looking at this list of these demos, I noticed something odd.

(1) There Is No Reason (2:13)
(2) Sheltered Life [take 1] (2:51)
(3) Sheltered Life [take 2] (2:54)
(4) It's Allright (The Way That You Live) (2:48)
(5) I'm Not Too Sorry (Now That You're Gone) (2:18)
(6) Here She Comes Now [take 1, with false start] (2:47)
(7) Here She Comes Now [take 2] (2:27)

My old copy of the "22 demos" cassette which dates from 1982 has tracks 2 - 7, in the same order. In the PSAS booklet (p35/37) there's a pic of the acetate which is presumably the original source for the tracks on my cassette. But where is "There Is No Reason"? Was it on a separate acetate? I'm sure I had a tape of it but where did it come from?

any ideas?

I just checked out Peel. Songs 3-6 are definitely from acetate, but There Is No Reason is either from a different very clean acetate or a tape. I don't recall ever seeing any pre-Peel bootleg copies with that track. VUAS had 6 tracks. I'm starting to wonder if that song was even recorded at the same session as the others.

In the mid 90s I traded some tapes with a collector who had VU & related tape copies dating back to the 70s on reel. They had longer and better sounding copies of a number of things, including the only source I'd come across of the full Max's shows prior to the deluxe 2CD. They had these demos labelled as Broom Street. Since the Peel box said otherwise, I considered it an error, but now I wonder. I'd have to dig out the tape (if I still have it) to see if There Is No Reason is on it and if there's a date listed.

Any idea on when this might come out?

If its Xmas 2014 I would expect an announcement soon.

Banana Album 45th Anniversary set was announced Mid-August 2012 and released first week of November 2012

WLWH 45th Anniversary set was announced first week of October 2013 and released first week of December 2013