Post-John-Cale-Fiasko

andrej · Post by **andrej** » 16 Oct 2006 16:05

Hi all,

I wondered if I'm the only one who thinks that only the first 2 albums of the VU ("The Vu and Nico" and "White Light/White Heat") are serious contributions to music history, and of course some bloody good piece of music.
Leaving everything that came out after John Cale left total rubbish.

Anyone sharing my opinion?

sars · Post by **sars** » 16 Oct 2006 18:07

Hell to the no! While the first two albums are usually associated with the "VU sound" the Gray album and Loaded are gems. They're reflective of an entirely different career and audience.

iaredatsun · Post by **iaredatsun** » 16 Oct 2006 18:14

andrej wrote:I wondered if I'm the only one who thinks that only the first 2 albums of the VU ("The Vu and Nico" and "White Light/White Heat") are serious contributions to music history, and of course some bloody good piece of music.
Leaving everything that came out after John Cale left total rubbish.

Anyone sharing my opinion?

Andrej ! A wonderful statement. A true master of Cultural Détente and a man after my own heart. I generally agree as I can't stand Yule's clichéd bass or organ playing. However, I know they headed towards the ordinary after Cale but saying that the 3rd album is total rubbish may be going a little too far for most people. After all, it has 'What Goes On' on it and still retains a certain flavour of what might have been had Cale not left. There are other moments (e.g Foggy Notion) after Cale left that I can still cherish as nice and better rock moments than most other people could ever produce in a month of Sundays.

What I think these days is that most people just don't give a fig for 'serious contributions to music history' and that discussions of tastes in music and art are really theological matters and hence not prone to powers of reason.

I look forward to the fall-out over this statement. Will we see a forum split - 2 forums representing a religious apartheid between Cale-VU and post-Cale-VU followers?

Changeling · Post by **Changeling** » 16 Oct 2006 22:41

heh

I love these "what was the REAL Velvet Underground?" threads

waldo jeffers · Post by **waldo jeffers** » 17 Oct 2006 00:48

Definitely not in agreement on this! While it cannot be denied that The Velvet Underground And Nico and White Light White Heat are milestones in rock music to dismiss what the Velvets achieved after that is just short sighted, not to mention grossly unfair. No doubt that the Reed/Cale alliance brought incredible results from a musical standpoint but, as was borne out by subsequent events, simply too fragile for any long term activity. Given Lou's strong self preservation tendencies I think it's safe to say that a move towards a more accessible sound was inevitable. Not that it did the band much good in terms of the marketplace. Yeah, Yule's musical abilities were fairly pedestrian but, in all fairness to him, he had a damn big pair of shoes to fill. And it cannot be doubted that this was intentional on the part of Lou and manager Steve Sesnick; with Yule's arrival the Velvets were now pretty much in Lou's control. Sterling Morrison has said that, around this time in the band's career, his position on things was basically one of acquiesence. Having argued most strongly in favor of keeping Cale in the band, Sterling was now too tired to argue (or perhaps care) one way or another. The self titled third LP and Loaded are just as valid, if not as innovative, as the first two albums and show that the VU could turn their hand to just about any style of music and execute it with brilliance.

GroovyMusic · Post by **GroovyMusic** » 17 Oct 2006 01:32

I group the first three albums together. Loaded is the one I isolate.

iaredatsun · Post by **iaredatsun** » 17 Oct 2006 01:42

waldo jeffers wrote:... the Reed/Cale alliance ..... simply too fragile for any long term activity. Given Lou's strong self preservation tendencies ... a move towards a more accessible sound was inevitable...Yule's musical abilities were fairly pedestrian but...he had a damn big pair of shoes to fill....was intentional on the part of Lou and manager Steve Sesnick; with Yule's arrival the Velvets were now pretty much in Lou's control....Sterling was now too tired to argue (or perhaps care) one way or another....

Waldo. I agree with absolutely everything you say but this line of thought does seem to fall into the category of an apologia, a defense for the fact that they just weren't the band that they were. A confirmation of the Andrej's premise. But yes, it couldn't be helped and that was sad.

I always think it remarkable that any group of young individuals can create even a small body of beautiful and radical music. For a group to make one great and ground-breaking musical statement is a fantastic human achievement. To make two or three such great works is more than I think anyone can reasonably ask. And this seems to me to be the typical life-expectancy of all rock groups.

And in contrast to the premise, I also think that the pleasure that simple well-crafted, well-played, well-recorded classic rock songs brings to people just cannot be denied and the creation of such material is no mean feat in itself. It never ceases to amaze me what each individual can bring to and find in the experience of listening to a particular band or piece of music whether it be high art, low art or something else altogether.

MJG196 · Post by **MJG196** » 17 Oct 2006 03:25

Wow...another "Which VU was better" thread. Yawn...

Oh, and John Cale sucks.

LCB · Post by **LCB** » 17 Oct 2006 03:31

Glen Matlock or Sid Vicious?

waldo jeffers · Post by **waldo jeffers** » 17 Oct 2006 19:10

Iaredatsun, my response was not so much an apology as it was my way of trying to explain the changes in the band dynamic that resulted in them moving away from the sonic groundbreaking of those first two albums.

As you said, the third LP has "What Goes On," certainly one of the VU's best rockers. Certainly some of the spirit of the first LP can also be found here, whether it's on softer tracks like "Pale Blue Eyes" and "Jesus" or the experimentation of "The Murder Mystery." And how could anyone not be charmed by Moe Tucker's vocal debut on "Afterhours."

I think "Loaded" has some of Lou's most moving lyrics: Tracks like "Sweet Jane", "New Age" and "Oh! Sweet Nuthin" have to rank among his best songs for that reason alone. Also, it is something of a treat to hear the band attempt something Beatlesque with "Who Loves The Sun."

Fact is, as great as those first two albums are, I would not want them to be the sum total of my personal VU experience. For me, the Velvets have long been one of my all time favorite bands and, as such, I definitely feel that the "full picture" view of the band is essential and dismissing the last two albums out of hand will not give you that.

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