Hy Weiss?

simonm · Post by **simonm** » 23 Aug 2004 00:06

Wayback machine is way wrong IMO - see http://www.acerecords.co.uk/gotrt/2003/ ... h2979.html
Weiss had this NY record company - put out some hot doo wop in the late 50s - Lou & Sterl dug some of the stuff. In the late 60s when Wayback has him at Verve, he was still running Old Town, and putting out some respectable soul sides.
Seems like the Harptones' "I Got A Notion" on Old Town from 1955 might be the source of the Weiss infringement.

Cordoban · Post by **Cordoban** » 23 Aug 2004 00:35

All you had to do was ask...

http://www.dalehouse.demon.co.uk/harptones.mp3

Homme Fatale · Post by **Homme Fatale** » 23 Aug 2004 07:56

alfredovu wrote:Dear Arjan,
I do not know why you consider Foggy Notion as a jam, as I think it is, considering the why the VU performed live thier songs, a song with lyrics and structure. Consider "Moves Right In". This song was recorder also by Yule but credited to Cale. Same as the ones you mentioned and "Countess from Hong Kong" too.
I still believe that FN is wrongly credited to Yule.

Anyone who plays an instrument or better yet in a band themselevs will understand the difference between a song someone wrote and one that was created by jamming. "Countess From Hong Kong" was obviously written by Lou while it's pretty safe to say that "Move Right In" and "Foggy Notion" came together by the band jamming on a groove/riff. Especially now that the Hy Weiss issue (quoting from an old rock'n'roll song...) was pointed out to me I think it's even more obvious that "Foggy Notion" was a jam.

The fact that the song has lyrics doesn't mean it's not a jam musically. As does not the fact that it has a certain structure, however, the rhythm and the chords reveal it for what it is.

The only thing that I'd say is "wrong" about the credits is why no Lou?

Elvis Plebsley · Post by **Elvis Plebsley** » 23 Aug 2004 11:54

Why no credit for Lou? Simple, Hy Weiss sued him. Lou talks about this on the NYC Boy radio interview. He goes on to say that Weiss was also manager of the hip hop band that sampled WOTWS for the song Can I Kick It and Lou sued them and got his money back.

Homme Fatale · Post by **Homme Fatale** » 24 Aug 2004 07:49

Elvis Plebsley wrote:Why no credit for Lou? Simple, Hy Weiss sued him.

Even when the guy was credited for "co-writing" the song...?!

Elvis Plebsley wrote:Weiss was also manager of the hip hop band that sampled WOTWS for the song Can I Kick It and Lou sued them and got his money back.

That's kind of poetic to say the least!

arjan · Post by **arjan** » 24 Aug 2004 10:51

Elvis Plebsley wrote:Why no credit for Lou? Simple, Hy Weiss sued him. Lou talks about this on the NYC Boy radio interview. He goes on to say that Weiss was also manager of the hip hop band that sampled WOTWS for the song Can I Kick It and Lou sued them and got his money back.

There's something wrong about this story (although Elvis of course retold it faithfully), and it's this. If I write a song that "samples" another one, be it physically as in hip hop or by incorporating lyrics and/or chords, there's two options: either the song becomes a co-write between me and the sampled writer(s), or if my own contribution isn't considered big enough or if their lawyer's "good" enough, it's theirs entirely and it effectively becomes a cover version.

It looks like Weiss won a co-write, since Yule/Morrison/Tucker are credited for their part of the jam. And maybe Lou's rhythm guitar isn't original enough, but his lyrics surely must be. So he should have got (and, according to BMI, who I swear by, has got) a writing credit for that.

My guess is that Lou just got sour about the thing and disowned his contribution, got his own back from Weiss by suing A Tribe Called Quest, and slightly distorted the story on air.

Elvis Plebsley · Post by **Elvis Plebsley** » 24 Aug 2004 11:08

Homme Fatale wrote:
Even when the guy was credited for "co-writing" the song...?!

He wasn't originally credited, he sued and was awarded Lou's songwriting credit.

Elvis Plebsley · Post by **Elvis Plebsley** » 24 Aug 2004 11:45

Just to be clear, I'm not disputing what Arjan writes, but reporting what Lou himself has said on the matter. It would make sense if the lyrics were seen to be a Weiss/Reed. Musically it makes sense that it be credited Morrisson/Reed/Tucker/Yule, if you leave aside the earlier argument about Cale's involvement. Incidentally I do think it possible that song came into being after Cale left: a rehearsal jam that Lou improvised lyrics for, hence the quote from another song and the resulting legal fight.

Now for Sister Ray, the songwriting credits are awarded to other members quite rightly as far as I understand the situation, because the jam that song was based on took place during rehearsals for the Poor Richards shows (line-up Cale, Maclise, Morrison, Tucker) while Lou was in hospital. The only question is should Maclise have been credited?

Homme Fatale · Post by **Homme Fatale** » 25 Aug 2004 07:52

Elvis Plebsley wrote:Homme Fatale wrote:
Even when the guy was credited for "co-writing" the song...?!

He wasn't originally credited, he sued and was awarded Lou's songwriting credit.

Wasn't the song's first official release on the VU LP? I don't have the record here with me but I seem to remember the credit is the same, is it not?

arjan · Post by **arjan** » 25 Aug 2004 08:52

Homme Fatale wrote:Wasn't the song's first official release on the VU LP? I don't have the record here with me but I seem to remember the credit is the same, is it not?

Don't know about the LP, but the CD has no writing credits listed whatsoever. It wasn't until PSAS that I saw that Foggy Notion was a group write.